ezekiel's chariot - 張敦楷 ([info]pjammer) wrote,
@ 2001-05-24 15:52:00
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Current music:Metal Gear Solid - The Best is Yet to Come

Why Nice Guys Finish Last
Quintessential Male Lament: Why do girls say they want ‘nice guys’ yet time and again end up with self-absorbed jerks and abusive scum?

Every man who has ever lost a woman to an unworthy hoser, every guy who ever cringed at the account of “Cowboy Timmy,” anyone who ever had to listen to an attractive female friend he held the torch for cry about an abusive boyfriend/husband, every man who ever considered in despair to abandon his ‘nice guy’ mindset so he just get laid and score some meaningless sex for once … every man I know … has turned this question over in his mind.

Why, why, why?

Why, indeed.

Why Nice Guys Finish Last

A man who is sweet and giving to everyone is, especially to young women, an uninteresting romantic prospect – because his kindness is cheap and available to whomever he is in contact with. You don’t have to be special to get his generosity because it’s on tap for everyone – and consequently it loses value on account of its commonness.

The deepest and most primal craving for most women is to be special – to command that complete, obsessive emotional focus from their male partner. You want to be the queen on the pedestal in your man’s life – not just another girl he treats with friendly respect.

And this is precisely why ‘nice guys’ - especially those in their teens and twenties, are so often alone: the affections of those who give it away too easily are heavily discounted. The vicious truth is that in this game, perception becomes reality: that which is commonplace is not precious – and that which is not precious, is not worth pursing.

On the other hand – a man who is cocky and self-absorbed – yet occasionally shows a sensitive side, commands inordinate attention. Why? Twisted as it may sound – it’s because women - particularly young foolish ones, hang on to the notion that it must take an extraordinary woman to bring that side out of him – and if she should succeed, she would possess this kindness all to herself.

It’s a human appetite to crave that which is just out of our reach – and though it is trite to the point of cliché, what could be more tantalizing than the prospect of finding a world-weary soul with a heart of stone, changing him, and in the process, be the sole recipient of his unswerving devotion?

If I am the only woman in the world who can bring it out of him, I can completely OWN this tenderness – this vulnerability that he denies the rest of the world.

This, gentlemen, is what we refer to as sexual catnip - and until a woman acquires the wisdom that comes with age, is the royal flush in the great poker game of romantic appeal.

Consciously or not … this sexual catnip is what drives the most young women we know – drives them to pursue infuriatingly dead-end relationships with self-absorbed pricks again and again – women who run back crying to their nice-guy friends when she is once again duped, used, and dumped by through-and-through jackasses who feigned just enough of a sensitive side to feed this fantasy, but whose lack of character or depth ultimately emerged and proved him to be exactly what he seemed on the surface: just another jerk with a silver tongue.

Turning the Tables

Every man is familiar with the stomach-churning disgust of watching fantastic women we know devote their affections to unworthy, preening jackasses. But understanding the dynamics of this irrational attraction isn’t enough unless you’re a masochist voyeur. The question is: Is there a way to convince women the folly of their pursuit of the ‘arrogant-jackass-with-the-heart-of-gold’ fantasy?

I believe there is.

To do so, we need to turn the tables around: what is the quintessential male fantasy? In that primal part of our simian mind, men want a woman who is sexually frigid to the world, but turns into a dynamo when she is alone with you, and you alone (“I’ve never done this before … Oh baby, it’s never been as good as it was with you … ”). Our fantasy object is the woman who is a pristine good-girl to the world, who magically turns into the Kama Sutra Queen in the sack.

There is a name for it: the Madonna/whore complex.

But men – mature men, recognize the Madonna/whore thing as the foolish fantasy of insecure boys. A woman who is frigid to everyone else is that way for a reason – and will be just as inhibited with you. Too, a woman with a healthy and positive sense of her own sexuality will, in all probability, have had great sex with someone else before she met you. Deal with it.

We laugh at 30-year-old guys who insist that they must marry a virgin, and rightly so. We should laugh harder at the women who chase fool’s errand after fool’s errand believing that this … this is the jerk-with-the-heart-of-gold who will devote his eternal adoration to her as soon as she can just win him over.

As appealing as it may be on some level, adults recognize that the notion that we must somehow ‘own’ and ‘conquer’ a partner’s sexual/romantic devotion is the height of immaturity. The best relationships are forged from a two individuals with similar levels of intelligence, compatible personality traits, shared values, a commitment to adapt to each other’s idiosyncrasies ... and a lot of hard work. Nothing more, nothing less.

By the time men reach their mid-twenties, most of us have matured in this dimension and recognize our ‘I-alone-must-be-the-only-one-to-have-ever-commanded-the-sexual/emotional-focus-of-my-partner’ daydreams as what they are – pleasant, but idle fantasies.

It is high time twentysomething women do likewise.



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[info]kristylicious
2001-05-24 04:08 pm UTC (link)
WOWIE ... Very well said !!

I for one ... would LOVE to have a "nice" guy ... after all the crap I've been through ... that is the only kind that I will be with in a serious relationship again. Someone just said to me last week ... a normal guy would be a HUGE turn on for you then ... and without hesitation ... I said ... You Bet !!

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]pjammer
2001-05-24 04:38 pm UTC (link)
Cool. What are you doing Friday night?

;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: - [info]kristylicious, 2001-05-24 04:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kristylicious, 2001-05-24 04:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kansaschica, 2001-05-30 03:10 am UTC (Expand)
Re: - [info]kristylicious, 2001-05-30 07:28 am UTC (Expand)
Re: - [info]kansaschica, 2001-05-30 04:38 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ernunnos
2001-05-24 04:30 pm UTC (link)
It's high time someone gave me a 1973 Porsche 911 RSR too.

What say we both hold our breath and see which one of us gets our wish first?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Irony ...
[info]pjammer
2001-05-24 05:35 pm UTC (link)
In exhibit A, we have the hard-core self-declared libertarian/anarchist who is holding out for a charity handout car.

In exhibit B, we have the politically uncommited chinaman who is holding out for a woman with a sensible set of values and talks about strategies to convince young women of the value of this mindset.

Yeah, I think the guy in Exhibit B will get his wish first.

HA!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Irony ... - [info]ernunnos, 2001-05-24 09:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Irony ... - [info]pjammer, 2001-05-24 11:17 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Irony ... - [info]ernunnos, 2001-05-25 01:59 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Irony ... - [info]pjammer, 2001-05-25 11:28 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Irony ... - [info]ernunnos, 2001-05-25 02:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Irony ... - [info]pjammer, 2001-05-25 03:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Irony ... - [info]ernunnos, 2001-05-25 04:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Motivation - [info]pjammer, 2001-05-25 06:26 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Motivation - [info]ernunnos, 2001-05-27 02:50 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Motivation - [info]pjammer, 2001-05-29 03:26 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Motivation - [info]ernunnos, 2001-05-29 05:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Two auxiliary points. - [info]ernunnos, 2001-05-29 05:24 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Irony ... - [info]ernunnos, 2001-05-25 02:55 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]krussell
2001-05-24 04:42 pm UTC (link)
hi, i found my way here from puglover's journal. all i can say is "JAFFO!!!!!" i couldn't find jaffo anywhere. i knew jaffo.org had been taken down, but didn't know he had a new domain. and he has a live journal! i'm giddy. giddy, i tell you.

(Reply to this)

(Reply from suspended user)

[info]orangiegirl
2001-05-24 05:23 pm UTC (link)
PJammer strikes again!! Thanks man.

(Reply to this)

Similar views
[info]raveen
2001-05-24 07:03 pm UTC (link)
I share this view.. and have had a similar explanation of this theory... however... I think yours is much more eloquent than the way I have worded it...

I am posting a link also....... (you can thank puglover)

(Reply to this)


[info]suburbansun
2001-05-24 07:16 pm UTC (link)
Spot On!. Strangely enough, what you described in the first paragraph happened to me just under 3 weeks ago.

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[info]quaddonk
2001-05-24 07:19 pm UTC (link)
Based on this argument, one can derive (loosely of course) the phrase, "Women in no way understand reality."

Women have a way of filtering out goodness, and extracting only the filth - and sleeping with it.

I was once a nice guy, and have, in the past year, turned from this stance and decided to follow the path of complete asshole, showing my sympathy/compation only to those I deem worthy. All others are crushed in the vice of unwarranted hatred! Since adopting this philosophy, I have slept with a total of.... Hmm... (a moment for calculating please) ZERO</big> chicks. Yes, that's right, NONE. Wee. As a nice guy, I got "laid" frequently, mostly by my friend's girlfriends who were unsatisfied with the mistreatment they were receiving.

In any case, this post makes no sense, but hey, what does?

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[info]nanowyatt
2001-05-24 08:10 pm UTC (link)
Trying to understand women is what I like to call "a mistake".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Women: God's First Mistake - [info]quaddonk, 2001-05-24 08:20 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Women: God's First Mistake - [info]etherealbunny, 2001-05-25 08:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Men: God's Simple Creatures - [info]quaddonk, 2001-05-26 05:51 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Men: God's Simple Creatures - [info]bakimono, 2003-07-05 06:20 am UTC (Expand)
hmmn well.
[info]lothie
2001-05-24 08:13 pm UTC (link)
Oddly enough, when I was young I was looking for a "nice guy" and couldn't find any...just jerks who couldn't deal with me so they had to be assholes. I would've given my left tit for a nice guy. On the other hand I didn't know how to just be friends with a guy so I guess I got what I asked for -- I mean, I wasn't perfect either.

Now that I'm older and wiser (ha!) I'm married to a very nice man who is not what I'd describe as a nice guy, but I love him and he loves me and little else matters.

I think *both* sexes need to stop playing games. Women view men as sexual predators and alternately despise and entice them (and ignore the ones who don't act that way). Men view women as playthings who couldn't use logic to save their soul. Sure, not EVERYBODY has this viewpoint...but enough do that the nice guys aren't getting laid and frankly, neither are a lot of the nice girls.

Thanks for writing this, pjammer.

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[info]applepiegirl
2001-05-24 10:25 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm....very insightful (and very true)!

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the madonna/whore connection
[info]archiedavis
2001-05-24 11:21 pm UTC (link)
i just have a few things to add, since you covered the waterfront very nicely.

the most prominant aspect of the nice guy finishing last is... they are BORING. its not neccessarily that they dont appeal to the girls because they are too kind and do not spark some sort exclusive sensitivity trigger, it is that they tend to behave in a rather syncophantic way with the ladies, due to their inability to relate, or to get their attention, and by doing so, further worsen their chances by seeming week, needy, and just plain annoying.

they tone down any and all of their real personalities, when if they showed their twisted sense of humor or interests, added to their general kindness, they would increase their chances tenfold.

but by acting like they would when talking to their grandmother, they reduce their interest level to that of a shoulder to cry on... when the more intersting guy has screwed them over.

the meaner, dimestore lothario type is rather self confident, apparently, and thereby is more attractive because he is more interesting, and due to the dynamics you discussed in your entry, with the whole "i can change him" poppycock.

and for the guys who want the virgins... why? they will be wholly inexperienced, and probably uninterested, or they would have experimented in the past.

any whole person would have both aspects to their personality, as would guys. the kind and kinky side.

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Re: the madonna/whore connection
[info]ex_storyofmy262
2001-05-25 01:39 am UTC (link)
this sounds more like it. fun takes precedence over the convoluted logic of i'm-special-because-a-jerk-loves-me in the minds of most women. women don't usually do that "tough logic" stuff no matter how convoluted.

any maybe, because the guy is fun and knows it, he'll take "surprising" advantage of this desirable trait from time to time (hence doing jerky things that make women cry).

but that's just my experience.

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Re: the madonna/whore connection - [info]archiedavis, 2001-05-25 08:13 am UTC (Expand)
Re: the madonna/whore connection - [info]ernunnos, 2001-05-25 02:17 am UTC (Expand)
Re: the madonna/whore connection - [info]archiedavis, 2001-05-25 08:20 am UTC (Expand)
Ah, yes. - [info]ernunnos, 2001-05-25 10:22 am UTC (Expand)
Re: the madonna/whore connection - [info]kmo, 2001-05-28 10:27 pm UTC (Expand)
dave sim of cerebus fame? - [info]archiedavis, 2001-05-28 11:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Or Cerebus Imfamy - [info]kmo, 2001-05-29 12:04 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Or Cerebus Imfamy - [info]archiedavis, 2001-05-29 12:14 am UTC (Expand)

[info]aoboshi
2001-05-25 08:10 am UTC (link)
I'm dating a perfectly nice guy and am perfectly happy about it. He does the sweetest things (on a daily/hourly/minutely basis, not every other month). I think I am very lucky. :)

(Reply to this)

hmm...
[info]amanda42
2001-05-25 08:44 am UTC (link)
First of all, why would anyone *want* a girl that fawns all over a jerk, anyway? There are obviously either bad judgment or emotional immaturity issues going on. If you did get one of those girls, you'd spend the rest of the relationship dealing with her emotional crap or her bad judgment.

And nice guys *are* boring as hell. So are jerks. What any mature (I mean emotionally, and not old!) woman wants is a man who will be genuine instead of changing his whole personality just to get a girl, as both the "nice" guys and the jerks do.

Be spontaneous. Be real. Be yourself. Stop worrying about what girls want. The right girls will find you.

(Reply to this)

Can I get an amen...
[info]zero3kid
2001-05-25 10:42 am UTC (link)
How true, that's all I have to say.

I dated a nice guy for three years. I was bored to death with him. We both needed to grow up, we were stuck in an immature little rut, and neither of us knew any other type of love. I broke up with him.

I found myself a cold-hearted boy who thought he was an unsung hero, who shut himself off from the world and vowed never to give his heart away.

"Oh, goody, I can *fix* him!"

Didn't work. Tried again with a depressed, masochistic pity whore who said he'd never say 'I love you' to anyone ever again. Well, he said it to me, then got all obsessive and crazy on me.

Now I've got another nice guy, who's all emotionally whole, loves to talk to me, lets me take things at my own pace, and makes me realize how nice it is not to have to win him over like a prize. He's nice to everyone, female friends included. But he has his own little way of making me feel special, letting me know that he loves me.

And nice guy #1? We patched things up. We're friends now...just friends, we go out for coffee, help each other move, have movie nights and everything...giving up our relationship helped us both grow up, and we get along famously now.

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[info]okoge
2001-05-25 04:25 pm UTC (link)
i've never really understood this "nice guys finish last" whine. i mean, really. get over it. find a girl who likes you, don't dwell on the ones who don't. *shrug*

or: ever considered that some girls don't want to get in a relationship with you, not because you are nice, but from some other percieved "flaw"? are you really as kind of a person as you think you are? is it natural, or affected? are you passing up some truly nice girls who maybe aren't physically stunning for those luscious hottie babes who ditch you for jerks? is it a relationship you want, or are you just lamenting not being able to get laid? do you have one girl specifically in mind [a good friend, perhaps], and projecting her behaviour onto all women? not a personal attack, just some thoughts [for anyone whose ever done the nice guy whine]..

some commentary from a woman's perspective: sure, we all love a villain. but any woman with half a brain is going to go through one real-life experience with one and figure out that it's a sure road to ruin. heathcliffs are best left to fantasy and animus projection. which isn't to say that most women wise up -- they don't, because most people don't *have* half a brain. because of this, i protest the idea that most 20-something men have wised up about sex and love and are wise and sage, and that women need to catch up. puh-lease. most people live their whole lives without wising up. i don't know. it all seems so melodramatic. sure, it's difficult finding an emotionally mature and intelligent partner who loves you for who you are, and with whom you can build a stable, life-long relationship.. so what? deal.

i do understand your frustration, in a way. i never thought i'd find someone to love me, for different reasons, and i went through a relationship with someone to whom i wasn't suited. and i suppose i'm quite smug now, having already found that kind of love that most people don't ever find in their whole lives. even so, i just think that time spent bitching about it is time wasted.

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[info]thortok2000
2001-05-25 07:11 pm UTC (link)
What would you say to an 18 yr old male who agrees with you in theory but not in hormones?

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In Theory but not in Horomones?
[info]pjammer
2001-05-25 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Hm. I think I know what you're talking about, but please elaborate ...

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Re: In Theory but not in Horomones? - [info]thortok2000, 2001-05-25 07:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: In Theory but not in Horomones? - [info]pjammer, 2001-05-25 08:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: In Theory but not in Horomones? - [info]thortok2000, 2001-05-25 08:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Oy
[info]jaffo
2001-05-25 11:00 pm UTC (link)
Oh good, you linked me.

*sigh*

I think this is a matter of short-term vs. long-term desires. In the long-term, women desire loyalty, honesty, kindness, and stability.

In the short-term, they desire flash, arrogance, showmanship, and flagrant displays of power.

For men, the mating game is about power. Women are attracted to power. It doesn't really matter what kind of power.

Physical power, how your body looks and how attractive you are.

Economic power, how much money you have, and how much you're willing to spend.

Intellectal power, how smart you are, which in most cases translates into economic power.

Creativity, which also rolls into economic power.

And charisma, how charming you are, how clever you are, how well you move yourself through social interactions.

Power = security in the minds of women, and that's not going to change any time soon.

The problem is, the superficial displays of security often conflict with the long-term emotional security they also crave.

A man can be a good provider, and be emotionally dead. You see it every day. Girl gets married and has kids. Husband is emotionally distant, but he has a good job.

They have a baby. All the time she's thinking, "He'll be tender once we're married." "He'll be tender once we have a child."

But he won't be. The superficial nature that attracted her in the first place is at odds with the kind of emotional support she wants.

It's conflicting needs. Too different kinds of security.

The younger a woman is, the less experience she has, the more likely she is to put her superficial needs above her emotional needs.

That's why I prefer older women.

Talk to some married women, women on their second or third marriage. That's when they get it right.

That's when they learn to balance the superficial and the emotional.

Single women can have this, of course, but they have to be in enough relationships to learn what they really want. To balance their needs.

(Reply to this)


[info]skiterlady
2001-05-26 09:14 am UTC (link)
Hi. I'm a stranger, sucked in by Jaffo. Blame him.

With all due respect, I think there's a small crack in your argument. Men and women are diverse people who span a wide range between nice guy and jerk, and between naive 20-something and jaded maturity.

I think this has a lot to do with character. Does the man holding the torch for the attractive female friend crying about the abusive partner have the fortitude to tell the woman "quit whining and DO something about your situation?" Or does he do the nice-guy pat on the head "there, there, it'll be okay" routine? There's more than one way to skin a Nice Guy, I think.

This is also about strength and weakness.

Of course, Naive Girl wants to be told its okay. But underneath that she wants a man to tell her where the bear shits in the woods, i.e., The Truth. Is the Nice Guy so afraid of being deposed from his comfortable role as The Friend, is he so afraid to dare risk his proximity to Naive Girl that he daredn't reveal his disgust? That's the worst kind of Nice Guy. The Wimp. Naive Girl may be naive, but it'd be a mistake to assume she's stupid. She can sniff out patronization and to be blunt, it isn't very sexy.

It's also the Nice Guy's weakness that he finds himself attracted to women of this character. There are Nice Girls out there, too. Are they too boring, too weak, for the Nice Guy?

This isn't to say that Naive Girl isn't also weak. It could be she's compensating for that weakness by seeking men who appear to exude that strength and confidence she lacks.

It could also be the influence of popular culture for the last several hundred years or so. Guinevere chose the strength and charisma of Lancelot over the comfort of King Arthur. Disney's version of Robin Hood has Maid Marion falling in love with Robin Hood because he won a kiss from her. Cinderella is rescued from a life of drudgery by the wealthy Prince Charming. Sleeping Beauty (oh THIS one really pisses me off) learns that even a Beast can be the perfect man if only you can fix him.

Doesn't that address your complaints? Robin Hood sure made Maid Marion feel special. Sleeping Beauty was pretty extraordinary to bring out the sensitive side of The Beast. And similarly, were there characters not playing into the "quintessential male fantasy" - the Madonna/whore complex? Come on boys, you don't really think Cinderella lived celibately happily ever after, do you? She abandoned everything to become worthy of a man - she got MARRIED. And you know what that means: free sex for life.

So what's my point? I dunno, I forgot.

Lemme think.

Okay I got it.

What I'm saying is this: we, all of us, are the product of our environment, and to a great extent, the result of our culture. It takes a long time to undo this way of thinking, and maybe that's why people like Jaffo prefer older and more experienced women: they know the fantasy is a farce. I'm not at all convinced that "most men" (or most women!) outgrow this fantasy programming by their mid-twenties. What about all the "silver tongued jerks?" Why do they escape your "most men" radar? There seem to be plenty of them around and I'd be willing to bet you could find some common fantasy that they appear to be striving to fit.

I don't know that the answer is to *laugh* at Naive Girl. Perhaps men should simply stop playing into the Protector fantasy and just quit coddling her.

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[info]jaffo
2001-05-27 10:14 pm UTC (link)
Teri brings up an excellent point about men coddling women they find attractive.

Is it easier to be honest with an ugly girl?

That's the part of this "nice guy" routine that I find contemtable. Telling a woman what she wants to hear because you want to get in her pants.

It's dishonest. It's weak. And it doesn't usually work. She runs to the nice guy to complain because she knows he'll agree with everything she says and take her side unconditionally.

And what does it say about women who need that kind of validation?

In the end, it doesn't work. She runs to the nice guy for unconditional support, but she doesn't respect him.

She goes back to the "abusive" boyfriend because he sometimes tells her what he really thinks instead of what she wants to hear.

I think we should make a distinction between genuinely nice guys and the gutless weasels who tell women what they want to hear.

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(no subject) - [info]jaffo, 2001-05-27 10:19 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cutelilsk8er
2001-05-26 12:52 pm UTC (link)
Oh, you wrote some good stuff. How true how true. I've never dated the typical "nice guy", but I really think I'd like to. All the guys I've dated were mean and self-centered, the only reason they'd do something nice for me is beacause they'd wanted to make up for acting like a jerk 95% of the time. I must admit, I would love to date a nice guy, because I myself am classified in that "nice girl" category (yes, we are a dying breed, but we are out there), so I get a lot of flack from guys for being the way I am.

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[info]poetpaladin
2002-09-22 12:19 am UTC (link)

If you are nice, please don't stop being that. Lot a lot of women are nice anymore.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

oh man...
[info]orionshaolin
2001-05-26 10:07 pm UTC (link)
we GOTTA talk more often. I like your mind. Jaffo too!
Not that I agree with EVERYTHING (mostly, but you forget that each person is unique... and must be evaluated as such.. generalities serve as guidelines, but adhered to they can be traps of deception. careful measure applied to each person is what more people need to learn, STARTING WITH THEMSELVES!!!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: oh man...
[info]kristylicious
2001-05-30 07:33 am UTC (link)
Very true ... every person is in and of them ownselves ... but oftentimes society seems to pigeonhole us into categories ... it's up to us to change that within our own outlooks.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

And what a driving force of intelligence it is.
[info]kissakisagari
2001-05-29 08:42 pm UTC (link)
I have to say, this is one of THE most intelligent and thought out posts I have ever seen. It is absolutely correct from everything I can see. I am overjoyed that you decided to post this, in it's entirety. Hell, I'm ready to ask you to help me overthrow society and start it over when the time comes. You've just expressed ever drop of anger and resentment that a guy feels for being the nice guy. It's not even if you are nice to everyone, as long as when the chips are down you help people out. And that gets you passed over by more people than I can think of. It could also be noted that often, the girls who are attracted to the arrogant assholes are also the ones most commonly found saying, "I just wish I could find a nice guy, who would treat me right" while they cry on our shoulders. Some of the other people posting also made a very probable observation that this will change when hell freezes over. It's an ingrained motivation in society now. It could well change, but it'd take decades most likely, and not without social upheaval to show that the arrogant types are worth absolutely nothing when everything is falling down around them. And this is going in my profile... I want as many people as possible to read this.

(Reply to this)

genius...
[info]treese
2001-05-30 07:52 pm UTC (link)
yet ANOTHER comment to your entry. i don't even know how i stumbled across it...but it was just too good not to comment.
i think you have a very good point there. and at first, i said "that's retarded, i like nice guys" which i do, but most of the guys i tend to really go for tend to be "emotionally retarded" for lack of a better word. you are so right about women wanting to feel "special".
i don't feel like being screwed over, and am too smart to fall for a TOTAL loser, hence the liking nice guys. but i don't like an easy target, i want to feel like i earned the affections of someone. hence the attraction to emotional retards. seems like this emotional currency you speak of can take many forms.
and i was recently dating a guy who was perfect in every way...and yet i always wondered why i couldn't love him.
nothing ever shed light on the situation. but now it is becoming more clear.
thank you for a most concise, articulate, thought provoking and entertaining piece of writing.

(Reply to this)

how can I not comment...
[info]xempathyx
2001-05-31 03:28 pm UTC (link)
And days later.. here I am drawn in by it being in Pete's profile as a "read this" kind of link. What can I say.. I agree- yet disagree.. being the teenage part of the female population I consider myself quite emotionally secure [not to mention mature]. And yes I was with, in some people's eyes, a complete ass off and on for years. I think- to get over that stage in your life- you have to run into the same shut door over and over. Than you'll be able to see past that and realize the mistakes you're making and there are better guys out there.. somewhere.. hopefully..

But the thing is..</b> guys who consider themselves nice aren't everyone's version of nice. Sometimes- and I'll agree with someone above who posted on this; a guy who is all into the "i'm such a nice guy.. why do the girls never go for me" gives off the vibe of a feeble attempt at attention and sexual interactions. Just for once i'd love to meet a guy who didn't consider himself in the "nice guys finish last" but still has the sweet and caring aura surrounding him. You don't have to be 100% niceness in the purist form for girls to swoon over you.. you don't have to be 100% jerk in the cruelest form.. to have girls wanting to change you.

It's a win lose tie situation. Everyone's opinion will differ.. but I just wanted to say.. it was a very well written entry.. and I'm adding it to my "memories".

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Game theory
[info]foobiwan
2001-06-28 05:14 am UTC (link)
This does seem to be a validation of the experimental result that the conditional-cooperation model is the most effective.

Or, the "nice guy" is the player that always co-operates in the prisoner's dilemma, and the "cowboy timmy" is the player that only co-operates when others have co-operated with it (converse of tit-for-tat)

While tit-for-tat works well in an atomic two-player game, the converse will work in a two-player game system where other players can be observed.

Computationally, it makes sense to screw the other guy once in a while =)

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[info]bigjon3475
2001-06-28 02:09 pm UTC (link)
Good god I don't know if it's in there somewhere with all those comments to this post. But the question to me now is do I just act like an asshole to all women I meet in hopes that they will somehow fall deeply in love with something that isn't even real? Or do you just go about being your nice trustworthy self and hope that a woman will see this in time?

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[info]paozel
2001-07-17 04:49 pm UTC (link)
Girls just wanna have fun.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: - [info]bigjon3475, 2001-07-17 07:38 pm UTC (Expand)

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